Deconstructing Conventional
Welcome to Deconstructing Conventional, a show fascinated by one simple question: How did we get here? How did what we call “conventional” come to earn that title? Is there a better way, and if so, what would it look like? This show is about deconstructing two things: Our individual biases, and the systems that run (or attempt to run) our everyday lives.
We do this deconstruction with an eye for where we can reconstruct something better that leads to flourishing societies, and robust physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual health. In short, this show is about questioning our assumptions and practicing systems-level thinking.
I’m your host, Christian Elliot, I’ll do my best to stay curious and humble. You do the same and we’re both bound to learn something. Welcome to the show. Prepare to have your thinking stretched.
Deconstructing Conventional
Hilda Ladrada Gore: Awakening Vibrant Health Through Ancient Practices and Spiritual Insights
Holistic Labrada Gore, also known as Holistic Hilda, graces us with her boundless energy and depth of wisdom, inviting us into a world where ancestral health and modern living harmonize beautifully. Imagine a life where vitality is your birthright, a concept brought to life through Hilda’s experiences as the host of Wise Traditions and her work as an experiential anthropologist. From overcoming a challenging heart defect to journeying across continents, she shares stories illuminating the path to embracing ancient wisdom and finding spiritual connections in unexpected places.
Join us as we navigate the compelling intersection of faith and alternative healing methods. Hilda and I take a deep dive into how spiritual beliefs can coexist with the world of energy medicine, unraveling a tapestry of insights drawn from personal encounters and biblical teachings. We explore the delicate balance of maintaining personal convictions while remaining open to new perspectives through stories of engaging with diverse cultures, such as Hilda’s experience at the Inti Raymi festival in Ecuador. The dialogue underscores the value of approaching different belief systems with respect and curiosity, revealing universal truths that transcend cultural boundaries.
As our conversation unfolds, the focus shifts towards practical steps for weaving a holistic lifestyle into the fabric of everyday life. Hilda introduces her transformative health coaching program, "The Holistic Hub," which is designed to provide a supportive community for those eager to integrate ancestral practices into their routines. From advocating for morning sunlight to recalibrating circadian rhythms to sharing the wisdom of quantum health experts, we explore simple, accessible habits that promise a lifetime of well-being. This episode is an inspiring call to action, urging listeners to reclaim health through the wisdom of our ancestors and the nurturing connections of the present.
Find Hilda on her website and social media
Hilda's YouTube channel
Follow her Wise Traditions podcast
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Hello everyone, welcome to episode number 41. My guest today is the inspiring, charming and down-to-earth Hilda Labradagor, also known as Holistic Hilda. She is perhaps best known as the host of the Wise Traditions podcast, which has about 500 episodes at this point and, as you can imagine, you don't interview that many people without having your thinking stretched and nuanced. So, in addition to being a podcast host, hilda is also a world-class health coach. She speaks Spanish, plays the guitar, she has a wife and a mother of four, and on her website she says she even has energy to spare thanks to her love of sunshine and the liverwurst which that is definitely the first time I've ever used the word liverwurst in an introduction. But as she talks you can hear that energy and you can tell that she has a love for life and a love for learning. And then when you hear the story behind the person which is where we started off the episode she's even more remarkable. I won't spoil it, but she did not have an easy childhood and it was just such a treat for me to interview her. One because of just how much our work overlaps, but two, since we both come from a Christian perspective. It led us into a conversation about how we've learned to navigate this popular world of so-called energy medicine. I've had it in mind for over a year now to eventually do a series I'll call A Christian Perspective on Energy Medicine, and I guess you could think of this topic or this episode as your teaser. There's just so much more I want to say about this topic, but really what was fun for me as the host is that Hilda is also an amazing storyteller. She has traveled all over the world and did a great job using stories from her travels. So, true to form, if you like, having your thinking stretched. Welcome to another conversation with a kind, level-headed person who can help you find better answers. There are a lot of different ways to pursue health, so here's to having discernment as you navigate your options to find the vibrant health that is your birthright. With that said, welcome to my conversation with a beautiful soul, hilda Labrador. All right, well, hello everyone. Welcome to today's show. My guest is the one and only Hilda Labrador. A little Well, hello everyone. Welcome to today's show. My guest is the one and only Hilda Labrador. A little bit about her.
Speaker 1:Hilda is certified by the Institute for Integrative Nutrition as a health coach. So fellow health coach, love it. She is the host of the wildly popular Wise Traditions Podcasts, which she hosts and produces for the Weston Price Foundation. And, by the way, as I told her, I am insanely jealous of the number of people you've been able to interview Almost 500 episodes by now and 14 million downloads. There's just I wish I could download that knowledge into my brain. But a few more things about her. So she is the director and producer of Holistic Hilda Productions. So she creates many documentaries to highlight ancestral wisdom and she has her own YouTube channel called Holistic Hilda. She says you could think of her as Dora the Explorer 2.0, which if you could see her posing that would be great. So Hilda has traveled to Kenya and Peru and Australia and Ecuador and Mongolia, ethiopia and more, exploring indigenous practices for optimal well-being. I love that because you don't just sit behind your computer waiting to see what the experts say about health. You're actually going out there and seeing what real people are doing.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Okay. Well, she describes herself as an experiential anthropologist, ancestral health advocate, educator and content creator. She's a speaker at conferences, events and hosts various ancestral tours and retreats and, appropriately, she is synthesizing her work from the last 10 years into a book. So I can't wait for that. I really, I genuinely don't know if I could think of anybody in the health world who's got more breadth of experience in the holistic health arena than you do. So welcome to the show. I'm delighted to have you. Thank you for taking the time.
Speaker 2:Oh, christian, I'm thrilled too. You know, I feel like you do. Whether we're the guest or the host, we're always learning something right. We have that curiosity, which I think helps us grow and then apply the bits and pieces that are relevant to our lives and to live more fully. I just I love my job, I love to ask questions, and so I'm grateful that you have me in the guest seat today.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you. Yeah, I can't wait to ask you the one thing. Question later We'll get to that, so let's just step back and go to the beginning. So on your website, you mentioned that there's not one picture of you as a baby. So tell people why that is Wow.
Speaker 2:I just feel like I understand how precious life is Christian, because I almost didn't make it. My parents, I don't think, took a single baby picture of me because they didn't think I was going to make it either. Basically, I was born with a birth defect. The short story is the doctors didn't notice anything at first, but as they started to listen to my heart more closely, they noticed there was a hole or a heart murmur. The blood was flowing between the lower two ventricles in a direction in which it shouldn't flow.
Speaker 2:Babies with my condition are often called blue babies because their blood isn't oxygenating properly, and so they monitor me closely. At that time, they actually didn't have the technology to be able to perform surgery until I was older, so they just watched me for years, and then I was nine years old by the time. They finally performed open heart surgery to sew up that hole, and that's what gave me a new lease on life. At that time, they said to me you can do whatever you want. I was like, oh my gosh, what do I want to do? Well, first I wanted to thank God because I felt like he spared me in the womb it could have been so much worse. And then he used the surgeon's skill to fix my heart. But then, secondly, I wanted to make my body stay as strong and last as long as possible, and then to help other people do the same. So this shaky start to my life really set the course for the direction of my life.
Speaker 1:Right on. Well, you said on your site that you went from skinny, scared and limited to becoming strong, self-assured and limitless. So tell us about that transformation.
Speaker 2:Well, because I know we're fellow believers, I'll just be straight up with you. It didn't happen overnight, number one, but number two a skinny, scared and limited kid needed some kind of supernatural help. So I had a best friend whose family was Catholic. She was one of eight kids and whenever I spent the night at her house on Saturday night, they're like okay, we're going to church on Sunday morning. And I didn't know much about it, I just knew that it felt so right in my spirit to go to church. I was like I love this.
Speaker 2:And so after my surgery, a doctor actually remarked to me. She said you know, the cross might not have been like this, like a T, it might've been like a capital T, and that's exactly the shape of the scar on my chest. And she said that's what you've got. And I was like I felt like God marked me. So I believed early on. I was like I believe in Jesus. I need a love stronger than my parents love, because they divorced when I was about 11, a couple years after the surgery. So it was all very shaky and very scary. So I needed a firm foundation and that's when I turned to faith in God, and so that was also part of my life's trajectory, so it wasn't just helping people with a physical, it was helping people with a spiritual. I was a worship leader for years, a Bible study leader, vacation Bible school volunteer. My husband and I worked for Young Life. So I really think these go together because we're not just flesh and bones.
Speaker 2:But, interestingly, I'm now focused more on the physical health because I see that as a ministry as well, and when I was finishing up my years of worship leading, my pastor said if you don't leave, hildy, he said I'm going to kick you out. And I was like wait, what Did I do something wrong? He's like no, he could see God's fingerprints and blessing on what I was doing with the podcast and he was like you go and God is going to use you. And, by the way, jesus healed people physically too right.
Speaker 2:So I know that the physical here and now matters to him as well.
Speaker 1:Wow. Well, how does it I wouldn't? Before I get ahead of myself, I want to make sure I close at least an open loop in my own head. So you had a doctor with a surgery going to rescue you in some ways. How is it that you escaped kind of the medical pharmaceutical hamster wheel? Because it could have been oh, they saved my life. I just need whatever they tell me and I'm just going to endlessly follow that. Somehow you broke out of that. What kept you from going that route?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a very interesting question. I think I just had I don't know, I don't want to just say a healthy skepticism, because it wasn't just that. I think it was because I had this surgery and I spent a lot of time in hospitals being monitored, getting EKGs and x-rays. I was like I want as little to do with that as possible. As a matter of fact, during the time of my surgery and my visits there for pre and post surgery observations, there was the 14th floor, which was a place for children to go for games and crafts, and I was forever going up to the 14th floor and I remember one nurse or doctor was like why are you always signing out and going up there? And I was thinking well, actually I didn't even know why, but now I know it's because I didn't want to be stuck in a room with a gown on and having needles stuck up my arm, you know. So I think that's what pushed me into how can I shore up my body naturally?
Speaker 2:And so, even when I was going to have my four kids, I had four kids in five years. I didn't know anything about spacing, by the way, but I was like I'm going to have them naturally, I don't want an IV in my arm which can lead to pitocin and then later an epidural, like all these interventions. I was like, no, I'm going to suck on ice chips, I'm going to have them without any meds. I just had a feeling, and probably it was really God led, but I was like I'm just going to do my best to have this. Naturally. People have been having babies since the beginning of time, without any interventions. It's not a sickness. Why do we need to go with the hospital in the first place, right? So I was making choices based on my intuition and, I think, god's guidance.
Speaker 1:Right on. Well, that's great, and I was going to highlight it. Just sounds like there was an instinct that said something's off about this and there's got to be a better path than walking around with a breezy gown and crinkle paper and needles in my mouth. So right, Okay 100%. Yeah, and.
Speaker 2:I had had my fill by nine, I was like, okay, I'm done, I'm done, baby. So I started working out, you know. And then, of course, I found the Weston A Price Foundation, which is about eating ancestrally like what has served humanity well and looking to that as opposed to the latest and greatest improvements on what nature and God have given us.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, well, let's blend those two. So when did you first come up with the name Holistic Hilda and kind of know you wanted to make your mark there? And when did you come across the work of Dr Weston Price?
Speaker 2:Great question. So for me, the first thing I thought I wanted to help people do is just to stay strong physically. So I taught exercise classes and get this. A friend of mine called the organization I worked for, jumping Jacks for Jesus. It was not. It was not Jumping Jacks for Jesus, it was called Body and Soul Fitness, but it did combine the physical and the spiritual. I loved it. We would start classes with prayer, we would work out to worship music. I was like this is awesome, and it was.
Speaker 2:I didn't give a second thought to other aspects of wellbeing not being outside, not getting my feet on the ground face to the sun, none of the things that I so love now until a dear friend of mine became sick and she said to me oh my gosh, hilda, like all the conventional doctors, don't have answers for me. She had chronic fatigue, basically, and she met Sally Fallon Morrell, the president of the Weston A Price Foundation, at a health fair and Sally said look back for good health today. Basically, in essence, she said you need to look to the past, don't look to the modern science, because they're catching up to traditional wisdom. So my friend started to shift her diet and started to see improvements and I thought why didn't I think of this before? Here? I was, as I told you, moving in the direction of natural stuff in terms of the childbirth and the exercise, but it hadn't occurred to me that the processed foods might also not be doing me any favors. So I started making that shift, probably really really 20 years ago or so, and then, when I started getting closer to the Weston A Price Foundation, they sent me to Kenya. Oh my gosh, so many stories I can tell you.
Speaker 2:But the bottom line is, as I was developing the podcast and my own website too, because I was working part-time for the foundation and part-time on my own I was at first going to name my website something like Holistic Health Network and my website guy was like Hilda, that sounds like an HMO that is not going to work. Holistic Health Network he's right, actually He'd be a great HMO. And I said well, a friend of mine in the podcasting space, he calls me Holistic Hilda. And my friend was like that's it, holistic Hilda. And I like the alliteration I've always been a word girl I used to be a translator, so I'm all about words.
Speaker 2:I love writing. But then I was like, oh my gosh, it fits me so perfectly. Because the more people I've interviewed Christian, and the more travels I've taken and that started about 2016 or 2015, the more I've come to realize that health isn't single-faceted, it's multifaceted. It's like a diamond and of course, there are seasons of our life, but I suggest we really consider all the different factors, like relationships and how much time we spend in nature and our stress levels, and all the things play a part in our well-being. It is not just one thing or the other and, as much as I see, food and even movement is foundational. I know that there's much more to the puzzle. So I'm so glad my friend dubbed me Holistic Hilda. That's the name of my website too, and now I've got information on there that complements the work of the Weston A Price Foundation Because, like I said, I work for them part-time and kind of on my own as a content creator. Dora the Explorer 2.0 on my own.
Speaker 1:Fantastic. I love that on so many levels. Anybody that has listened to my show knows how I like to think holistically as well, and mental, emotional, physical, spiritual and I've been at this almost as long as you, about 2005, and you can't separate them anymore. They're just the same puzzle and once you kind of metabolize that, it's so much quicker to go to the heart of the matter with people. And there are so many medicinal things spirituality, food, movement, sleep, water, sunshine, et cetera that are so easy to deploy, but anyway. So comments on that. But I do want to hear your thoughts and define a couple terms here on what is ancestral health and for people who don't know who Weston Price is, tell them that. So we kind of have that as the context for the rest of our discussion.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think ancestral health is living as naturally and as close to nature as possible. Connected maybe I would just say with God and our neighbor and nature.
Speaker 2:Nobody has a trademark on that. There's the paleo movement. That has to do with food. There's the Weston, a Price Foundation. That's about food farming and the healing arts, but it's kind of a lifestyle and I think in the past people might have called it, you know, crunchy or hippie. It's the idea that you know our answers don't come in a pill or prescription, in a program or from a physician. Really, good health is our birthright and it's something that you cultivate like a garden.
Speaker 2:In Western medicine we see the body as a battleground. We're going to fight cancer, we're going to fight ALS you know breast cancer awareness and like we want to fight all the time. But what if, instead of having that oppositional posture, we had a posture more like that of Eastern medicine, like let's cultivate good health and see what flourishes, you know, let's put in all the good inputs, like I said, from the sun, from getting our feet on the ground, from positive relationships and forgiveness and good food and all the things, and watch what flourishes. I think we're too much honestly Christian in a reactive mode as opposed to an active mode, and what I mean by that is we wait until we have a pain and then we're like, oh, what pill can I pop for that? We're looking for a quick fix. What if, instead of waiting for the pain and that message to be, our bodies whisper to us like, hey, you need to get some help here. What if we instead took our health into our own hands and took steps to make sure our stress levels were balanced, our relationships were positive, we're picking the best food we can within our budget to nourish ourselves?
Speaker 2:I think we'd be less likely to be dealing with the pain. The pain is simply the body telling us, hey, something's up. And that's when we start listening. But it'd be great if we could avoid that altogether. So I guess, to answer your question about ancestral health, like I said, nobody has the corner on the market, but I think the idea is to live as naturally as possible with as few interventions as possible. My goal right now is to stay out of the hospital for the rest of my life. You know, I don't even want to go there to die. I'd rather just you know, die scuba diving or something. But to answer the question of Weston Price, so he is a man who's often overlooked as a health pioneer and the cool thing is it's not like he's the hero of the story Christian.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:He found the heroes all over the world, the people living as I just described. He took it upon himself in the 1930s to travel the world. He got National Geographic magazine and he was like where the heck are these people? I'm just putting it in my vernacular. But he's like what has happened? These people look amazing. They have beautiful teeth, broad smiles, great facial structure, good posture. They look happy and fertile and strong and resilient. And the people I'm seeing in my clinic in Ohio because he was a dentist and a researcher he's like these kids have crowded teeth, they have cavities, they have poor posture, poor hearing, poor behavior. So he's like I got to go find out what's happening.
Speaker 2:So, literally he grabbed his wife, florence, by the hand and for 10 years, every summer they would travel to a new place. They went to Switzerland and the South Sea, pacific Islands and Scotland and Alaska and Kenya and Ecuador. They were all over the place and he was looking for the people that were living untouched by modern lifestyles and diet, and he was curious about what they were eating, exactly what was making them so strong and fertile and resilient. And of course, as you can imagine, the diets were different everywhere. So in Switzerland it was like dairy and butter and maybe sourdough bread, and in Kenya it was milk and meat and blood, and in Alaska it was seafood. So they were very different, but they all had things in common.
Speaker 2:And basically this was the thesis or the premise for his book, nutrition and Physical Degeneration. And so he carefully documented what they were eating. He sent their food back to his lab in Ohio for analysis and he found out that everyone was eating local, seasonal, organic, traditional foods. So there wasn't any flour or sugar or vegetable oils. It was not canned foods, it was all like single ingredient foods, foods that your grandparents would recognize as food right.
Speaker 2:And so he wrote this book and he was able to document how beautiful and happy and strong the people looked compared to those with the same bloodlines who had left their traditional diets and started to incorporate. Even in his day they could get flour and sugar and all these things, and they started to notice their own health deteriorate and the next generation significantly also started to have conditions that weren't good. They were not living their best, healthiest, optimal birthright lives. They had narrower faces that were a sign that they weren't getting the nutrition in utero that they needed and then they would have conditions and so forth. So fascinating, fascinating work. And all of this is the basis for the foundation in his name today. So it's called the Weston A Price Foundation and I host and produce the podcast Wise Traditions, and it's been my privilege.
Speaker 1:Okay, and just to hear the breadth of podcasts you've been able to cover in Food Farming and the Healing Arts what a tome of a resource. If you guys have not listened to this podcast, you're missing out. I would honestly say it's my favorite show out there. There's just so much wisdom on it. But you also had the like. You got the travel bug at some point, the itch to follow in his footsteps. So tell us a little bit about your travels, what you've seen, maybe some of the biggest lessons that have stood out to you.
Speaker 2:I have so many beautiful stories to tell you I hardly know where to start, but I will start with the first one. So in 2015, this is when I was still a volunteer for the foundation. I was a chapter leader. They were like we're looking for two volunteers to go to Kenya. They said because a Maasai warrior contacted us and he said please send someone over, we're all getting sick. Getting sick. A Maasai warrior. These are the ones that are tall and, you know, hail and hearty, the ones Dr Price had seen so many years ago. He said I have diabetes. This warrior said my wife has asthma. He had seen the physical degeneration of his own people, his own tribe, his own village, and he was like send someone over. He's like I can tell them, but they're probably not going to listen to me. You know, the Bible says he's not welcome in his own hometown.
Speaker 2:So I raised my hand. I was like I'll go, and someone else volunteered, so off we went in 2015. And it was so beautiful because I had the privilege of saying don't eat the American way, for goodness sakes. I was like eat your way what has served you. Well, since you can remember and I just I can't get over I remember vividly being with this Maasai tribe when they slaughtered a goat and the way they did it was a little boy he must not have been older than 12, covered the goat's snout to suffocate it in like a very humane way. He was like, okay, we're slaughtering this goat. I don't, I hope they weren't just doing it for me, but anyway, they slaughtered the goat, they cut it open. I saw the Maasai drinking the blood. We put its fat like over a little fire and we were literally sitting around chewing the fat, squatting. I was like, oh my gosh. So this tribe was still living according to its tradition, except they had started to see the influx of the flour and the sugar.
Speaker 2:At one point I was eating with a Maasai woman. She was wearing her colorful garb, the beaded jewelry, all the things In one hand. She had a chai tea laden with sugar and in the other, I promise you, it was a white bread jam sandwich. And I was like, oh no, so this is what had led to the physical deterioration or degeneration that my friend Dixon, this warrior, had noticed. Well, anyway.
Speaker 2:So when I was there, I had the privilege of talking to a Maasai elder and as he came up, I promise you also, he was like nearly 100 years old, if not over 100. We were kind of doing the math behind his back, because some tribes don't keep track of age. We're like, okay, he was here when the tea came to Kenya. We were like making all these notes, but anyway, and I was like I have to ask this man questions. So I grabbed my iPhone, not being a podcaster yet, but I was like I'm going to interview him. Basically, I hit voice memo and through a translator or two, like I would talk in English, someone would translate it into Swahili, someone else would translate it into Ma, and then Ole Sanku the elder would like talk back.
Speaker 2:And anyway, through a kind of telephone translation situation, I asked him what was your diet like as a child? What did you do when you got sick, you know, and just all these questions. And he said our diet was whatever we could catch. That's what he said literally. They were hunters, right, and they were nomadic. So he was like, if we could get a rhino, great, if we could get a hippo, fine. I mean, whatever they could catch. He? He said maybe some wild berries and honey, but that was the extent of the diet, he said. And then when I said, well, what did you do when you got sick? He said we never got sick. And I was shocked. You could have picked my jaw up off the dirt floor of the hut. You know, I was just like what. And then he said yeah, if we ever felt like a shiver coming on, he said we would just drink milk from the cow and he demonstrated it drinking straight from the udder.
Speaker 2:He showed me we would drink from the cow and I was like, oh. And then I was like, well, why are your grandchildren being told? Cause? He's like my grandchildren are being told wear a jacket, it's getting cold. He's like we didn't have jackets and they're being told get a shot because disease is coming, but we didn't have shots. Like he was talking to me all these things, I said what is the difference? Now? And he said education.
Speaker 2:And I was like oh, so that was interesting. In other words, as like the government has come in to kind of educate the Maasai.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, I think, there's this natural erosion that happens if not accidental or unintentional erasure that's happening of their own cultural practices and kind of a replacement or displacement of those by saying, well, that's how your grandparents did it, but this is what we do today. And you didn't use fertilizer, but we do, and this is what we recommend. You know that kind of thing. So, oh my gosh, so fascinating conversation. That's what propelled me. I was like, oh my goodness, so the Weston, a Price Foundation, lifts up ancient wisdom. I was like I've got to see if they want to have a podcast and I will host and produce it. So that was the catalyst.
Speaker 1:And when I came back and asked Sally.
Speaker 2:She said, okay, go for it. And now what's kind of cool is? We do lift up indigenous voices. I've had Dixon on the show, an Aboriginal woman, people all over the world, an Ecuadorian midwife. But we also talk to experts who understand that ancient wisdom is the way to go, and that's why, as you have suggested, the podcast doesn't just encompass, let's say, kind of paleo or primal ways of eating, but encompasses mindset and energy, work and the importance of being in nature, and there's just so much that plays into our well-being. So I'm so happy that, yeah, the scope is exactly food farming and the healing arts for the podcast, but that encompasses a lot as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does, and I think that story may be better defined ancestral health or ancestral wisdom than attempting to put it to words. Just tell a story and like, oh, now I get it, like the ancestral wisdom in that elder that you talked about. He knew what to do, but we've it's. I mean, it's such a you could apply this lens to so many cultural phenomenon we have walked away from and lost traditions that were actually edifying and nourishing and holistic and so many other beautiful things. For this commercialized wisdom coming, whether it's government or teachers, and it's that you could. You, you physically saw that in the erosion in the people in front of you, juxtaposed against this elder who's over a hundred or whatever, who has got robust health, and you're like some we've met somewhere. We took a wrong turn here.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And I have to tell another quick story of Australia because that made a big impression on me too. So I got to meet with this woman. She calls herself an ancestral whisperer, suzanne Thompson. She's of the Inangai tribe, because just like Native Americans in the US have a lot of different tribes, so so do the aboriginal people. So she invited me outside of Barcalda, in this town in the Northern territories there in Australia, to visit this land. And, oh my gosh, christian like. She showed me places where the Aboriginal people had put stencils on, like these cave walls, like made of blood and urine and spit, and they would mix it up in their mouth and they would kind of almost instead of a spray paint can they would like spray it with their mouths around the hand. They would leave a handprint and the rock was so porous it would absorb that kind of natural paint. And it's still there to this day. Anyway, it was, it blew my mind, and of course there were emus sketched up there and kangaroos and all kinds of things. But anyway, but I'll never forget, sitting on the hillside overlooking this land with my friend Suzanne and she said Hilda side. Overlooking this land with my friend Suzanne and she said, hilda, this is our grocery store, or this was our grocery store. And I was like, oh my gosh, contrasting that with in that same country in Australia.
Speaker 2:I got to go to this town called Maningrida, which, for lack of a better descriptor, I will call kind of a almost like an Aboriginal reservation of sorts, and people told me you really don't want to go there, it's very difficult to go there. But I was like no, I want to go there, I want to go there. So I got permission to go in. It was very limited where I could go because basically they didn't want outsiders to come and observe and, you know, kind of infiltrate in the people's culture there and stuff. But I couldn't help but notice there was one grocery store in this town. It was right next to the Hasty Tasty, which is as bad as it sounds. It was like a 7-Eleven and, believe it or not, I bought some fish and chips there because I was really hungry. I was kind of desperate myself.
Speaker 2:But anyway, when I was there the cashier said are you visiting? Obviously I was visiting. I was like, yeah, she goes. Why on earth would you come to Maningrida? And it was so clear she was depressed. And then I went in the grocery store and all they had was like those little, like fake Kool-Aids you'll see at 7-Elevens, and canned foods and boxed foods, and I thought we've removed these people from their traditions where the grocery store was their immediate surroundings, where they would fish and do all these things, and we put them in this place. Of course they're depressed, I mean, it shocked me, but I learned, yeah, I learned a lot that day and I continue to learn about the importance of yes, tapping the wisdom of those who are still willing to share it and recognizing that we're meant to be a part of nature, not apart from nature.
Speaker 1:Fantastic, what a story, and you kind of set me up well for another thing I want to talk to you about. There's so many topics that you and I both looked into and we got a long run doing it. So we've talked nutrition and healing modalities and detox and what, but there's this budding kind of cultural conversation going on right now about so-called energy medicine, and I don't have the breadth of travel experience or interviews you've done, but there's so many different perspectives on that, and you and I both come from a Christian perspective. So, since you've mentioned it a couple of times, I want to kind of just see what kind of filter that we both see and hear through, and so you neither.
Speaker 1:But we can't stay in the health world very long without coming across what I guess I would just call the woo-woo in the health world, and there's this broad category of purported healing modalities that can fit under energy medicine, and so you and I both know there are plenty of invisible things that impact our health, and EMF is an easy example, right, but what the hell is your filter? How do you separate out kind of what I call the fluffy woo-woo, the new age spiritualism, and not also throw out the baby with the bathwater and maybe inerrantly dismiss genuinely powerful healing modalities? How has your thinking become more nuanced about that over the years?
Speaker 2:That is a great question. So, just as Sally said, modern science is catching up to traditional wisdom. I think the same is true in the energy category. And let me explain. I'll never forget when I was in Mexico and I got to connect with Dr Rashid Buttar, who may he rest in peace. I know he was outspoken during COVID and that might have actually led to his demise, but that's another story and perhaps a conspiracy theory.
Speaker 1:What.
Speaker 2:I want to tell you is this Rashid was demonstrating to me that he had a bracelet.
Speaker 2:He's like look at this bracelet he goes what we can do with this bracelet is tell people at a headquarters in Texas and I don't know how he set this up exactly, it was almost like a Fitbit, let's just say he's like we can tell people on headquarters in Texas that we need more love or peace or joy or whatever he goes, and then they'll send that energy to us through this bracelet. And I was like I didn't say this to him, christian, but I was thinking okay, that's prayer. Basically.
Speaker 2:That's prayer he is asking someone on another part of the planet to send energy his way. And so I was like I think, you know, this woo-woo world is only catching up to Christianity. They are recognizing that there are other forces at play when it comes to well-being, that we are not just flesh and bone. So, though they may call it by a different name, I personally, as a Christian, am not threatened by it, because I see it as a step closer to my understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit, of the fact that we are a body of Christ. It says in 1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12, I believe. So I think we are more connected than we realize.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't really I guess I wouldn't buy into the language of you know we're raising the collective consciousness like that does sound woo, woo, but what those people are really trying to say is that the way we relate to one another matters. So if you let's just put it in very plain layman's terms if you had a bad day and you're aggravated and you're stressed and you come home and you kind of unload and say some unkind words to your wife, and then she said something kind of edgy or snappy to one of the kids and then the kid does it to the dog that energy isn't just confined or shared in your household. There's something about what's happening there that is affecting the larger world, your Christian brothers and sisters, and I would say everyone, because now I'm not getting the phone call from you where you're checking in with me because you're in a bad mood, you know, and so and we all know these things, whether we're Christians or not like we can walk in a room and sense that there's tension if a fight just happened, not because anyone has said anything, but we can feel it right. So I think as Christians we tend to be too quick to dismiss, I would say, not threatening to our worldview, but also a reality.
Speaker 2:So I just finished revisiting Eileen McKusick's book I think it's called Electric Body, electric Health, and she talks about I did interview her on the podcast, by the way, and she's big on biofield tuning, like taking a tuning fork to kind of measure the energy of your body and determine where there's stuck trauma. And again, this might be labeled woo-woo, but I can't forget, when I was nine years old, and before and after before that surgery, how the doctors would use electrocardiograms or EKG tests to check on the rhythm of my heart. It was measuring the electricity of my body or something that can't quite be quantified in other ways.
Speaker 2:And then you can also get the same kind of thing for your brain. And what about the MRI Like? What kind of scans are they doing of our physical bodies that involve electromagnetic fields? So I think both science and ancestral wisdom and our own experience as Christians tell us that there's more to us than meets the eye and we don't need to be, I would say, alienated by some of these understandings. Now that also means for me personally, I'm not going to subject myself necessarily to every treatment that comes along, because I don't know what spirits might be called on to release me from trauma, supposedly. Or I have to be judicious, I would say, and this is where I would hearken back to Psalm 46, 10, that says be still and know that I am God, because if I'm still, I'm going to hear what the Holy Spirit has to tell me. And I also have to understand, christian, that there are places in the Bible where it says some people will eat meat sacrificed to idols and others will not because it's a matter of conscience, right?
Speaker 2:I think some Christians could have like a tuning fork, tuning and be fine, and others are like that's not going to work for me and I think that's okay. I think this is a little bit of a gray area where people need to listen to the Holy Spirit, but I think we're too quick to say, oh that's herbalism, oh that's witchcraft, and I think that's a way to dismiss things that are actually part of God's plan for healing. Because when I was in Ethiopia two summers ago, I was with some tribes, people among the Omo Valley there, and they would point out, oh, that tree has leaves that are good if we get malaria, and that tree has something for yellow fever, and they were not worshiping the trees, but they knew that the trees had something to offer them that was healing. And so I think we just have to be very judicious as Christians in terms of what we're going to get involved in, but also recognize that God has placed things around us to heal us and that we are more than flesh and bone.
Speaker 1:Man, what a great answer. You may have to rewind that people and go listen to it again, because there's so many. There's pearls, there's principles in there, but let me give you a few that have helped me and see if you can add to it or embellish it. So a pastor said one time don't judge someone else's peace which I thought was a great way to say it. Like we are going to have somewhat different perspectives or even levels of readiness, and the Holy Spirit may say you're not, that's not for you for now. There may be something else going on there.
Speaker 1:But another pastor said that every ology is a subcategory of theology, and I love that because essentially what I think I heard you saying is whatever we're finding that we can measure in this invisible realm, realm, whether it's magnetism or light or motion or like the wavelengths, that yeah, we can find and replicate that and it's predictable and there's something there. But even though we can't see it, whatever that is that we're finding, what it's doing is pointing us to the one that made it and the, the creator of it, and something. There's two major things that I see where christians, or people in general, get off track with their spiritualism relative to energy, medicine or just the things they let they entertain in their mind, and one is conflating the creator with the created.
Speaker 1:We take these things that we can measure, and quantum energy or whatnot, and we we say that energy is God or we are just one with that, and they've blurred or erased the distinction between us and God, as if we're one thing and then, the other big one that I see is the idea that the things that we can measure in that realm or the insights somebody like a psychic or other people might get, that anything we can explore in that realm is benevolent and doesn't have an agenda maybe of evil or to harm us.
Speaker 1:It's not there to manipulate us. It's only good. And I think, recognizing that there's a real category of evil and there's things God prohibits on purpose, divination and such that he's very firm that this is not for you to do, and the recognition that we are not God and that I don't need to worship the stars or the trees. I can worship the one who made it and created that order and stand in awe of that. But those are just some of the things that have helped me give me some boundaries or navigate this world. But what would you add to that? Or tweak or upgrade?
Speaker 2:I love those. I love not to question someone else's peace, that all ologies are under theology and that we're not God. That's where some of my friends because I do have a lot of friends in this space who think differently than I do where they I'm like okay, that's a line for me. I think it's good to know where your convictions stand and, again, to keep seeking God to determine where they are. When they're like well, we're all one and we're all God and I'm like okay, if I'm God, we're in trouble because I am not God.
Speaker 2:I did not create that tree out there, or you. I do believe we are made in his image and I do believe that he has given us, as children of God, the ability to influence the things around us. I will say you know, people don't. Sometimes we'll call it co-creation and that might be giving us, you know, more credit than we're due. But I do think we have an impact on the people around us and so we need to be very, very attuned. I would say so keep seeking God. You know he says ask and it will be given to you. Seek and you shall find, knock and the door will be opened to you.
Speaker 2:So this is why I let my curiosity or let God use my curiosity to lead me, but I also am careful to make sure I know where I stand. A quick story I do want to tell you, though, is too, I'm not threatened by other people's belief systems, because I think sometimes I can learn from their dedication, from their expression of faith, and I hope that they can learn from mine. I don't go into some indigenous communities with the hope that I'm going to witness, though Get me right, christian, I will witness. I will witness because I am a light bearer, but I'm not going in to necessarily convert as much as to connect, and I think in that connection things may shift for both of us. But anyway, I'm saying that because I think in the past, sometimes, you know, missionaries will come in and again, unwittingly, but obliterate the traditional cultures that have their beauty and their place, and I think there is a verse in the Bible that says God has written eternity in everyone's heart, so that you know anyone. Anyone is without excuse. So we're all kind of seeking, and on that journey and on that path, some people simply may not have heard of Jesus.
Speaker 2:But to go back to what I was going to say is, when I went to Ecuador, I was invited to be a part of a festival called Inti Rai Mi, and when I did a quick Google search to understand it better, it said well, this is a sun worshiping festival. And so I was like, okay, well, I'm not going to worship the sun S-U-N. You know I will worship the sun S-O-N. But I was like, okay, let me, let me see what's happening. I'm invited, I'm going toing festival. When I talked to the Quechua people that I met, they said we are offering thanks to God and to the earth for its provision. It was almost more of a Thanksgiving and they're like and we do this little dance to kind of re-energize the earth after it's given us the harvest. And I'm like this is cool. So I danced along with them because I knew we weren't doing some kind of worship the sun and the earth dance. It was a gratitude dance. I was like I can get into this.
Speaker 2:So, I think not everything is as it seems and I also think again, we have to keep seeking and going in with a learning posture. For me, as I travel, different places is important, so I'm not coming in with a heavy hand of judgment or condemnation of someone else's faith tradition, but I can bring mine alongside and hopefully pique curiosity in those around me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it's a testament to the idea that you can learn something from anyone and that all truth is God's truth if it's truth because he made it that way and maybe I had to learn it or I had the opportunity to learn it from someone who saw the world a little bit differently. I remember in seminary there was a book that we were reading and it was kind of this idea between faith and logic and our duty to have a reasoned defense, and that one of the imageries they put in the book was there's this, you know, there's mountain, there's these scientists finally scaling the last mountain of ignorance they could find and they get to the top and there's just a band of theologians who've been sitting there for centuries Like, oh, you guys took the long way, but you made it like we had the gondola, we, just we. We trusted this originally and now we know. But you went the hard way to around the end, around to figure out that God really is who he said he was, and and to not put him in a box where he can't speak. He speaks through a donkey. He makes the sun stand still in the sky. He writes on a wall he.
Speaker 1:And there's that weird section in acts what 19, where paul prays over aprons and handkerchiefs and then they give them out to people and the people who touch those are healed. I'm like, whoa, there's to your point of prayer. There's something in this realm that is that that we are um asked to test the spirits and we are asked to have discernment and not be afraid of what's invisible, what we can't see, but not fall for every shiny object. And and so tell us maybe some of the things, hilda, that you you see maybe as gifts that god's given us for healing, that we might tend to overlook, or help Christians not be so scared or paranoid that we dismiss things. But where can we maybe find some principles that give us a little more discernment as we? What would be some examples of things that you'd say are super helpful?
Speaker 2:Before I go there, Christian, I have to be vulnerable. I think I told you before you started rolling I'm an open book and so I have to tell this story, because it was one time when I said yes to someone that had a healing modality that I knew nothing about and I still don't even remember what it was called exactly, but I was like, let's just say maybe it was light work. I was like, oh, light work, that sounds good, you know. Okay, I ended up in this room with this woman that I didn't know. She was saying words over me that I couldn't understand and doing some strange ritual things, and afterwards I was like never again never, again, I'm not going to submit myself to something, you know.
Speaker 2:And I did pray afterwards and I was like, ah, god, cleanse me. But I was like cause I didn't know what she was praying and that was a little scary, to be honest. I was like, okay, you've got to be careful, got to be discerning. So I don't want people to think I'm perfect and there may be others who say, well, hilda, that's great for you to go into these communities, wanting to connect and not convert. But I really want to let God's light shine through me, but I don't feel like that's exactly what he's called me to do. Do I have opportunities? Yes, do I take them? Yes, so, but I just I think it's because of my background, with Young Life, I'm a little bit more relationship evangelism you know, coming alongside people, getting to know them and letting God's light shine through me.
Speaker 2:But in terms of things, I think we don't need to fear. Well, first of all, don't let somebody pray over you and you don't know what they're saying. But unless it's the gift of the Holy Spirit or something speaking in tongues, I would say. One thing is being willing to look at trauma as a root of illness. This is something that's known as well. It's actually seen in a lot of healing modalities, including German new medicine, maybe even in this electric body you know biofield tuning work as well. Because I think well, I shouldn't even say I think I'm convinced that sometimes it's not a physical ailment that we're dealing with, even if it feels that way. Let's say, your shoulder hurts and you're like man did I just tweak that? Playing pickleball or something Like what's going on here?
Speaker 1:It could have to do with grief.
Speaker 2:It could have to do with the fact that you're carrying a burden that's too big for you emotionally or energetically. It could have to do with the fact that your mom was unstable when you were growing up and so you've been kind of carrying the weight of that. I don't know how it's going to express itself in your body. But not all physical pain has a physical root. That's how I would put it, and so be willing to. Maybe the first thing you want to do is talk to a Christian therapist. Okay, great, though I sometimes think that talking about it can just kind of embed the grooves deeper in your psyche and body in a way. So I'm not really sure about that, but you need to find what works for you. I think even massages or lymphatic draining can be good, because it's all of a piece. So when you move. For me, for decades I taught these exercise classes. I was certified by the American Council on Exercise, so for body and soul fitness I was teaching classes like three or four times a week. I think all that movement really helped me release some trauma. I wasn't raised in a perfect home. My parents divorced, as I might have mentioned earlier, when I was 11. So it was tough and then I was looking for love. I had a hole in my heart that wasn't just physical, and so I kind of dated around. Anyway, I made my commitment to Christ when I was about 17 and God started to fill that hole. But there were definitely a lot of ways in which I needed to grow spiritually and emotionally, mentally and physically. But the point I'm getting at is you might have an emotional or psychological trauma that has led to whatever physical condition you're in right now. So feel free to explore, yeah, some energy, work or even, like I said, working out. I know that's great for mental health anyway. Another thing I would avoid fearing is maybe even looking into more herbal medicine or essential oils. To be honest, I've interviewed some people on the topic, but I don't take a lot of teas and things, but I'm interested in them and I wouldn't be averse if I had any kind of pain point right now. I don't take a lot of teas and things, but I'm interested in them and I wouldn't be averse if I had any kind of pain point right now. I don't, but I do think that, even though this earth has its toxins, god is always greater and there's more abundance of what works and heals than the things that will hurt and kill. So I would recommend turning to that for possibilities, because did you know that pharmaceutical medicines? They're basically imitating things in nature that God has given us, like aspirin, for example, originally was from the bark of a tree, and then they started thinking, oh well, we can save money if we use petroleum for the base of these pills and we don't need to get all the natural stuff. But the synthetic stuff isn't as good in my opinion. So feel free to turn to that. And here's the third one.
Speaker 2:This one might be controversial, but I would even say homeopathy. And I personally, again, I've only taken it once, I think, when I was traveling to Africa, and I thought, well, let me get a homeopathic remedy for malaria, just in case. But what homeopathy is? It's actually energy. I think they stick energy in these little like sugar balls, let's just say, and you can put it under your tongue, and apparently the energy is healing. And so I say, just like Jesus did you can tell a tree by its fruit. If this was making us sicker, then absolutely don't get it. And, by the way, that's most pharmaceuticals, If this is doing good for people and it's putting them on the right path without any contraindications or side effects. I say it's worth exploring, but again, take all of this to the Lord in prayer, because something I might be cool with might not work for you and your family. But I say let's embrace what's natural. And what we really should be saying no to in this world is all the fake stuff that is man-made.
Speaker 1:Wow, that was great. Another rewind section and listen to that one again. But yeah, there's so much out there that is efficacious and we do not need to be afraid of it. But we can test the spirits and we can say this doesn't sit right with me and maybe it never will, or maybe it will later as I learn more. But yeah, there's something mysterious about the order that God created into the universe, where there is memory inside cells, and it isn't just memory of what B vitamin I'm missing. It's memory of things that have happened to me, that I just finished recently a book called the Field by Liz McTaggart, and it's there's all this documentable stuff about what's in the body or what's in a single cell and what memory is in even in water, that there are things. That's what homeopathy works with. It's there's a memory that this, of this particular plant medicine, that the water's captured and the more you dilute it, the more the water's like I got it, Don't worry.
Speaker 2:It's the weirdest thing. I love it, I know, I know, and that's not woo-woo, it's like God's design. I mean, look at how Moses raised his staff and part of the Red Sea. Of course that wasn't Moses, that was God. But the point is, water responds. There was just energy going out, the Holy Spirit, right, and so while we might look askance at, like Vita Austin or Isabel Friend, these women who are talking about like water, having memory and stuff, it's quite likely, in my estimation, because our bodies are mostly composed of water. So this is why we want to say I think you know good things and this is why, over our bodies, over our kids' bodies, saying oh my gosh, I love you so much. Do you know that changes something in them. So let's not be afraid of the fact that energy impacts things and it impacts us, and think about how we pray over food, for example. Wherever I go, I try to get the groups I and again, I hang out with definitely woo-woo people or people who would call themselves spiritual and not necessarily Christian.
Speaker 2:But I'm like look, whatever your faith tradition, let's pause over this meal, let's give thanks, because I figure it's one step in the right direction and they understand. They're like, oh yeah, if we pause and we almost like put our hands over our food, that's going to change how this food enters our body and so it starts to help them, kind of almost even for them, with, let's just say, maybe mysticism, with an understanding of faith. It's. It's so fun and I'm not threatened by these worldviews. Some of them really resonate with me because it seems to me they go hand in hand.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I, like I imagine you are. I I'm not afraid to enter, interview anyone I'll. I'll happily have conversations with people, because they always stretch my thinking and typically they force me deeper into the word and then say, like what does the Bible say about that? Or what have I not understood about the created order? That might be an amazing angle that I'm missing. That could really help me understand God better. Like that's fun to me.
Speaker 1:And if you can operate from a solid foundation, knowing that the God of the universe is never going to make you fearful, that's not the spirit we've been given. He is a gentleman, he is not pushy. And on and on through the character of God and again test that spirit and say is this from you, lord? Would this agree that Jesus is Lord? And on and on. And when we have a good filter, there's that verse everything is permissible, but not everything's beneficial To be able to say what is here that reflects God honestly and where does evil want to sneak in a lie and manipulate it and twist it and tell you that? Did God really say that? Does he really mean that Is that? Is he trying to trick you and steer us away from truth?
Speaker 1:So hopefully in this you guys have maybe picked up some pearls, or maybe some confidence or discernment to try out some other things. But as we start wrapping up, hilda, I want to make sure you get to just tell. Yeah, I said when we first talked, you mentioned you're launching a new health coaching program soon, and so tell people about that. What are you up to and how do people follow you and find your work?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. So. I've got two things that I'm offering on my website right now, and one the most important to me is community. I'm calling it the holistic hub. Again, alliteration is my thing. I'm hoping it's a space that will encourage people with their health, because it's not just a one-shot deal, right, it's a journey. So I want to offer encouragement.
Speaker 2:I'm going to have a private podcast in there. It's a solo cast where I just share my uncensored kind of inner monologue, you know, 15 minutes a week. And then also I'm going to have live some cooking classes and some other modalities in there, like emotional freedom, tapping, things that I've come across that I think could be helpful for folks. And then we're going to have challenges. It's going to be so much fun and I'm launching it November 11th, so that's one thing, and then that's just going to be continual, very small monthly fee for people to join that. Then, twice a year, I launch a course. It's called Health for the Long Haul, because I don't want people to just have health for today. I want them to keep stacking those hacks.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I help people incorporate six ancestral secrets for healthy habits, including getting the morning sun and honoring their sleep, and along the way I offer tips and science and ancient wisdom and stories to encourage them. So that happens too. And then, of course, I have all the content on Instagram and on my Holistic Hilda YouTube channel and the Wise Traditions podcast that I host and produce for the foundation. But the one thing I wanted to say that I think is really important, christian, to add to what you were saying about fear, is that perfect love casts out fear.
Speaker 1:Yes, it does.
Speaker 2:And that's what sustained me during the hardest days in COVID. You guys in my neighborhood people would yell at me.
Speaker 1:Tell people where you live, because that's relevant data.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm actually in Washington DC.
Speaker 1:There you go. Okay, carry on.
Speaker 2:It's rough. No, it was rough and people would yell at me on the street because I wasn't wearing a mask outside. It was really, really hard. But I was like you know what, to me, the message I was getting over the airwaves and even from my neighbors was a lot of fear and I was like I'm just not going to live that way. And, yeah, I was just like I'm not going to wear a mask because the Bible talks about having uncovered faces and I thought this lets the glory of God shine and I want to see my neighbor's face.
Speaker 2:And I even said to my pastor I said what if the hallmark of Christians at this time was that we hugged each other? You know, just like Jesus would touch the leper, like what if we did that? I didn't even know in the early days that COVID was nothing to be afraid of, you know. But I was like what if we did that? And he just looked at me, kind of in fear actually, when I said that and that didn't really fly with that church. So I had to say goodbye to that one. But I I just feel like, stand on the promises of God, know that he is love, we have nothing to fear and he is going to guide your steps. And one of my favorite verses I want to quote from Jeremiah is ask for the ancient paths, ask where the good way is and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls. That's from Jeremiah 6. And I just love that. So keep seeking and asking and knocking and it will be given to you and you will find it. Wow.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, I was going to ask you the question you have to ask or you ask everyone the obligatory Hilda if you could have the listener do one thing. But that may have been it, that was great. So let me I'll put it to you another way. If you so, you always ask people at the end of your show if the listener could do one thing to improve their health, what would they do? And so maybe, turning it back on you saying, how might have you would have answered that a year or five, 10 years ago. How might you answer it now If the listener can only do one thing, if you could give them some focus or takeaway? Is it what you just said, or would there be something that you'd add to it?
Speaker 2:I do think the spirit bit is more important than anything else. But right now if I had to tell them one really concrete thing to do, I would say it'd be to get the morning sun. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, I learned the value of that over the recent years through my travels and through conversations with health experts in the quantum health space and they just said that really sets your circadian rhythm, can boost your metabolism, improves your energy, helps you sleep better it's like so many things, so I do that. It's a non-negotiable for me. Sunrise before screen rise.
Speaker 1:Oh, I like it. Okay, cool. Well, Hilda, thank you so much for this fun and jovial conversation. I'm so honored to have you join me. Thanks for coming on the show today.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much, Christian. I loved it. We'll talk again soon, I hope.
