Deconstructing Conventional

Jordan Gundersen – Iridology Unveiled: Deciphering the Secrets of Eye Patterns for Personalized Health Insights

• Christian Elliot • Episode 29

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Discover the hidden stories your eyes are aching to tell with master herbalist and iridologist Jordan Gundersen. Our eyes are not only the windows to our souls, they're also the map to our wellbeing, and Jordan is here to interpret the signs. From the intricate patterns of the iris to the subtle hues within, we dive into the secrets that each eye holds—a revealing session that includes a live analysis of my own eyes, offering a personal peek into my health and emotional state.

Venture through the annals of iridology with us, as we trace the practice from its roots to its modern resurgence. We illuminate the contributions of the field's pioneers and debunk long-held myths about iris colors and structures. As it turns out, we all have blue eyes beneath the surface, and the rich tapestry of colors we see is a dance of melanin and light. Jordan's expertise shatters misconceptions and opens the door to the healing power of recognizing emotional issues through the eyes, highlighting how our diet reflects in our organs and emotional state—an intertwining of history, science, and holistic health that is as fascinating as it is enlightening.

Wrap up your listening experience with a powerful reminder that knowledge is the cornerstone of proactive health management. We share insights into the genetic predispositions lurking in our irises, discussing how this understanding can guide us in creating personalized health plans. As we explore the intriguing details visible in the eyes, from the sclera to the liver, we underscore the importance of equipping ourselves with the tools and wisdom to become stewards of our bodies. Join us on this journey into iridology, and empower yourself with an education that shines a light on a healthier, more informed you.

You can learn more about Jordan on his website, and you can follow him on Instagram.

Have you been struggling with brain fog, chronic pain, insomnia, GI issues, auto-immunity, infertility, or inability to lose weight? Check out our 8-Week Accelerated Detox Program

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Speaker 1:

Hello everyone, welcome to episode 29. I've got another fascinating episode for you today. I guess you could say. Serendipitously, it worked out that I have two episodes in a row about the eyes. So if you missed my last interview about how to heal your eyesight, naturally go back and check out my interview with Carlos Moreno.

Speaker 1:

But this one is all about iridology, which is a discipline that analyzes the eyes. That's really a window into not just our physical health but a possible nutrient deficiencies and, interestingly, our emotional health and our past traumas. It can also give us insights into our overall constitution and underlying susceptibilities we might have. So my guest in this episode is a man named Jordan Gunderson. In addition to being an iridologist, he is a master herbalist and you may recognize him from previous episodes. So this show was particularly fun for me because after we talked about the history and method of iridology, jordan and I looked at pictures of my eyes and his eyes and, for context, we hadn't talked about my pictures yet, so you get to hear me in real time learning about what my eyes have to say about me. So since it's an audio format, we really did our best to describe what we were looking at. But if you want to watch us analyze the pictures.

Speaker 1:

This interview will also be featured as part of our upcoming and free detox course. The course is designed to help people who have taken the COVID vaccine and went to detox from that, but it's really turned into a course about how to detox and heal from pretty much anything and, humbly, I think this course is really a much-needed reality check and first principle-based approach to really cut through the noise and the hype and the hope that's full of inflated promises and kind of help steer you away from the unhelpful or modestly helpful options and point you toward the most needle-moving things you can do. So I think this course is going to just be a game changer and a statement on the topic of detoxification. So, anyway, if you want access to the course, where you can also watch this interview and many other of the interviews, then just make sure you're on it. Sign up for our newsletter. To subscribe, just go to the footer of our website, truewholehumancom, and you'll be among the first to know when the course is ready.

Speaker 1:

One final thing I'll say for context is that this show is something that over the years, I've kind of realized that the body has so many insightful and non-invasive ways of giving us information about what we're dealing with and, frankly, I think many of them are more profound and actionable than a lot of the lab tests that you'll get at a typical doctor's office. So stay tuned for more interviews in this vein of things that the body can tell us about what's going on internally that don't involve lab tests, and know that I'll keep bringing you new ways to take charge of your health. Okay, so, without further ado, enjoy my conversation with Jordan Gunderson. All right, hello everyone.

Speaker 1:

Welcome to today's episode. My guest is Mr Jordan Gunderson. He has the distinguished honor of being the first guest to appear three times on the show. If you haven't heard our first couple of interviews, we did one on kind of just herbs 101 and we did another one on an herbalist's perspective on how to detox from the COVID shot. So today we are talking all about iridology and the idea that your eyes can be a window into so many things related to your health. So, jordan, welcome back to the show.

Speaker 2:

Thank you so much for having me back on. It's good to be here.

Speaker 1:

Cool, all right. Well, give the listener a little bit about your background and what got you into studying iridology in the first place, and what is iridology?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So I think you know, with most people it's a little bit of a journey. You get a piece here, you get a piece there, and then it all kind of starts to come together. And that's kind of how it was for me. I first got into herbs and learning about how to take care of our bodies, how to detox, and then, once I started doing that, I was helping my family. But we noticed that for my youngest daughter she was two years old at the time she had some serious issues that we couldn't quite figure out. We didn't know why she was having these issues. The same herbs that worked for me and for the other members of my family, they weren't really working for her and just to give you a taste of the things she was experiencing.

Speaker 2:

Whenever she would get sick, she would stay sick much longer than anybody else in her family, and once she would get well, she would continue to have this chronic cough that wouldn't go away. And, being the herbalist that I was, I was going okay, well, I know what to do here, we're just gonna do this and that. And it wasn't working. And so I had studied herbalism with the School of Natural Healing, which was started by Dr John Christopher, and he had used irodology a little bit in his practice back in the 60s, 70s and in the early 80s. So I had heard of irodology before, but I didn't really know much about it and what it was. And so, as I was thinking about how to help my daughter, I just had this thought come to me, one day you should go learn irodology, and that was seemingly random to me.

Speaker 2:

I was going I don't really know much about this, but sure I'll look into it a little bit and so I contacted the School of Natural Healing, where I learned about herbs, and they actually forwarded me to a guy by the name of Dr David Pesic, and he is the founder and president of the International Institute of irodology.

Speaker 1:

Oh, you went right to the top of the food chain then, huh yeah he's one of the top irodologists in the world.

Speaker 2:

He's presented at the really prestigious German conference of irodology he's the only American to ever present there and I'll talk a little bit about German irodology versus American irodology, because that's an interesting conversation in and of itself. But anyway, I went to his school and learned about irodology and once I knew enough, I looked in my daughter's eyes and boom, I found the cause of her problems and it was just incredible to be able to see that and understand it. And then, with that knowledge, I knew how to best support her.

Speaker 1:

Well, it's fun to me because I've got a client who I had mentioned when we first did our interviews that you were also an irodologist and so he just he's an initiative taker. He went and found an irodologist and got a workup done, and so at this point I've been his coach for over two years and so I've gotten to know him quite well and many of the things in this report were like scary accurate to who he was, not just like you know what's going on and what systems or organs need help, but the temperaments and personality and nutrient deficiencies and so many things that were just right in front of me on this printout, and I'm thinking how in the world she figure this stuff out from his eyes. So, before we get into some of the basic things that irodology can analyze, give us a little bit more like a brief history of it. How far back does this discipline go?

Speaker 2:

That's a great question. It goes back to the beginning of human civilization. Really. We have some evidence of irodology, or at least some form of irodology being practiced in most ancient cultures the Egyptians, the Chaldeans, the Chinese, the Greeks, the Romans. They all have some form. With the Egyptians specifically, they found hieroglyphics where there's an iris and then there are organs placed inside that are indicating the various areas of where you find those systems in the eye. Alexander the Great, his chief medical officer, would use irodology to determine which individuals were fit for combat, and they would only choose the strongest people to go be in the army. And that kind of makes sense that you want the strongest, fittest people. And you can tell a strength of a person's body by how tight the fibers are in the eyes. So when they're really dense and really tight, that determines how strong a person's body is going to be, how well composed the cells are going to be and things like that. And so that's how they would select their soldiers for battle.

Speaker 1:

Wow, okay, so well, give me some of like, what are some of the basic tenets then of irodology, like maybe the first principles, or what does it purport to be able to help us diagnose or learn about the body? You mentioned strengths and things like that. What other things can it help us get insight into?

Speaker 2:

So that's an interesting question and that kind of goes along with the history of irodology. Okay, because you know, a hundred years ago, 200 years ago, they used to refer to it as iris diagnosis. There are many practitioners who refer to it as such, and so they would use the iris to help inform a diagnosis. Most places in the world today use irodology, or it's pretty prevalent. However, here in the United States it's not. There's a good reason for that. I don't know if you want to say a good reason, but there is a reason for that. There was a guy by the name of Henry Lindlar. He was an American naturopath. He was in the late 1800s, early 1900s, so he did a lot of natural medicine and things and he's actually quoted as saying the regular school of medicine as a body has ignored and will ignore this science because it discloses the fallacy of their favorite theories and practices and because it reveals, unmistakable, the dire results of chronic drug poisoning and ill-advised operations.

Speaker 1:

Oh man, no wonder they didn't want that out.

Speaker 2:

Those are his words, not mine and so with the coming of age of the modern pharmaceutical industry in the early 1900s If you're familiar with the Flexner report, that went around to all the medical schools and they seemingly picked on all the natural medical schools iridology just kind of dropped out of the curriculum.

Speaker 1:

Yeah For the listener, in case you don't know, an episode two of this podcast. I went and deconstructed a lot of that history, so if that's intriguing can you go check that out. But anyway, carry on Jordan.

Speaker 2:

And so that's kind of when American well, iridology kind of went out of vogue in here in America. But it was kept alive by a naturopath named Dr Bernard Jensen. If you're familiar with him, he was a natural healer, he was a chiropractor. He's considered to be the father of iridology in North America. He did all kinds of things with herbs and nutrition and he's the one who kind of kept iridology alive. I think he was born in 1908, and he passed away in 2001.

Speaker 1:

Is he writing a book about enzymes? Am I thinking of the right person?

Speaker 2:

I think his big book was a guide to better bowel care.

Speaker 1:

I think that's the title.

Speaker 2:

I'm not sure if that's the title. Okay.

Speaker 1:

Anyway, I'm thinking of. I may be thinking of someone else. There's a great book, I think, of enzymes, the key to health, and it's so undersells the breadth of what he covers by focusing so myopically on enzymes. But anyway, okay, I'm chasing and rabbit in my own head. Go ahead.

Speaker 2:

So Bernard Jensen kind of kept iridology alive. I think he learned from Henry Lindlar and he kept it going. However, across the ocean over in Germany is actually where a lot of the really good stuff comes from. There were two guys. One was named Josef Deck, the other was named Josef Unger. They were both German and they actually have kind of basically the same story. They were drafted as medics in the Nazi army and then they were both captured by the Russians During World War II and while they were in Russia they started working as medics with Russian soldiers and they actually would observe these Russian soldiers, what was going on in their eyes, and they would correlate that with their medical history. So there was very observation-based. They were making connections, making correlations, and then after the war they went on. They went back and basically did more research, did the same thing. They were very, very meticulous. I believe it was Josef Unger. He actually became a doctor and professor of medicine and both of these men published a lot of information. I think Josef Deck looked at over one million eyes during his lifetime. So they were very, very detailed and very extensive in their research.

Speaker 2:

But with these two differing schools of thought, with American iridology it was a little more how do I say this? More new-aged in its beliefs. It was very kind of mystical, and the German school was very observation-based, very scientific we're not publishing anything that we can't correlate or replicate. And American iridology was a little bit more spiritualistic. It wasn't as grounded in observation, at least from what I have gathered. For example, there are a lot of things in American iridology that we have since learned are not accurate. One of the things was that if ever there you see a weakness in the iris, if it's a structural weakness, that it can heal up and it will close up and it will be good as new.

Speaker 2:

But the Germans proved that's not actually true. With the advent of digital photography we've also been able to show that as well. We get these really good big pictures of the iris and you can take pictures over time and the structure is not going to change. Now what may change are the different colors in the iris. Basically, in iridology there are three different types of iris colors. There is the blue iris, or what we call lymphatic. That can appear anywhere from gray to blue to green. Those would be considered lymphatic irises. Then we have the hematogenic, or brown iris. Those are like the really matte, dark brown irises. Then we have what we call biliary iris, or mixed. That's kind of a light brown hazel. It can be anywhere from light brown to more darker brown. Those are the three different types.

Speaker 2:

In American iridology there is this longstanding belief that if you have brown eyes that your eye color should actually be blue and you need to do a lot of cleansing until your eyes turn blue. It means that you have lots of heavy metals, lots of toxins in your body. People would cleanse and cleanse and cleanse for years and nothing would happen. That's one of the things that German iridologists said. No, no, no, that's not true, that's not a thing. Now I will say that everybody in the world does have blue eyes. That is a fact.

Speaker 1:

Okay, tell me more. How is that?

Speaker 2:

a fact. Most people in the world have melanin pigment that covers the iris fibers. We call those iris fibers trabeculas. That melanin pigment gets deposited over the top of those trabeculas. I've done this with my clients who have brown eyes. Almost every single time I have a client who has brown eyes, we'll take a picture of them, we'll blow it up real big and then there's often a few areas where you can see where that pigment didn't get deposited and it's actually blue.

Speaker 1:

What Okay?

Speaker 2:

I have a friend who is Pacific Islander, so he's got really dark brown eyes and he wanted me to take pictures of his eyes, so I did. We looked at it, we zoomed in and I said look, your eyes are blue. Right there. He was just like what the heck? This is crazy. Everybody in the world has blue eyes, but most people in the world they appear brown because of that melanin pigment.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well, so wild cardamom, it's in my head. I've got a friend who actually has two different eye colors, significantly different. What would you make of something like that?

Speaker 2:

Well, it depends on their parents and grandparents as well, because oftentimes you'll get parents who have blue eyes, parents who have brown eyes. Then they have a child, and most of the time that child's eyes will be kind of a mix of blue or brown. So it'll be kind of like a biliary iris that I talked about, because, though it happens that, for whatever reason, in utero that fetus can't really decide which it's like. The genetics are at war, and so sometimes they come out with a brown eye and a blue eye. That's very rare. There are other instances of what we call a sectoral heterochromia, which is where there's a section of the iris that is brown while the rest of it is blue, or it's darker brown while the rest is lighter brown. So those things do happen. It's essentially just kind of where the body can't really decide what to make it, so it just kind of comes out.

Speaker 1:

Let's go for the compromise. Fine, we'll just do both Right. Fascinating, okay. Well, that's a great history. There's plenty in there. I did not know, and it adds more color to some of the other aspects of it. So I guess one of the most captivating things to me, anyway, about iridology is how holistic it is, rather than trying to isolate symptoms. It's really from my understanding and you tighten me up here as I articulate this but it's really trying to look at the body as this interconnected web and it considers how various systems and organs are influencing one another. So it's fun for me, because that's what I do as a coach. I'm looking at the complexity of this person's life, trying to figure out what is bringing about the health they do or don't have. It's exciting for me to think that the eyes could be another window into understanding what the body's really dealing with. So did I frame that? Well, is that kind of one of the tenants or approaches iridology has?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's absolutely spot on. I think iridology really excels when it's used in a holistic manner. I mean, there are a lot of people out there who try to use iridology like a doctor does and they try to make diagnoses. I don't think that's really a great way to do that, because you're looking at a whole person, just like you said, you're trying to interpret all these different things to come up with why a person feels the way they do and why they act the way they do, and a lot of times it's like this. It's a complicated web and so oftentimes when I work with clients, one of the biggest hurdles that I have is trying to educate them in a way that's holistic. When they're used to thinking very reductively, the medical system kind of trains us to think oh, I've got diabetes, I've gene insulin.

Speaker 2:

That's not the only thing, that's one of the things, but there's so many other factors involved, and so when I provide reports to people on their irises, one of the challenges is to help them interpret everything together. But it's kind of like drinking from a fire hose. There's so much information in the irises. One from a genetic perspective. All of the structural features in your iris are going to be genetic, so you have these, what we call trabeculas. Like I mentioned, there are these fibers in your iris. If you go and look in the mirror and you see those lines like spokes, those are the trabeculas, and whenever you see an opening, they're called either lacunas, if they're more elliptical, if they're kind of like lines like spokes, like kind of like they're depressed, or deep those are called radial furrows and those indicate areas of genetic tissue weakness.

Speaker 2:

So whenever you find those features in whatever area it's in, is going to determine if that area of the body is genetically weak. You also have things that show up in the iris that are more of an experiential perspective. So something that may have come about over time, something that may have developed, those can be pigmentation, like, for example, a brown pigment in your iris is going to be liver and gallbladder indicated. It may be that your liver and gallbladder may have been congested at one point. It may still be Orange.

Speaker 2:

Pigment is going to be pancreatic related. It's a little more red. It's going to be digestive enzyme related. They're both pancreatic. There's orange and then there's reddish orange. Orange is going to be more blood sugar regulation problems. Dish orange is going to be more digestive enzyme, pancreatic issues. And then we have yellow, which is going to be more kidney congestion, kidneys stagnation, things like that. We also have kind of a whitish cloud feature that's called TOEFI, lymphatic TOEFI. That's an indication that the lymph system may be congested, may be stagnant, may have some issues with that. And then there are more less common features. For example, people with brown eyes often will have this not so much people with blue eyes, but oftentimes you'll see little speckles. You can't really see it just looking in the mirror, but when you get a high-powered camera, you get these digital photographs. You can zoom in and find these little speckles all around the eye. So that is usually an indication that the person may have some challenges with iron metabolization. So, for whatever reason, their body's not able to use the iron that their body receives.

Speaker 1:

Wow, okay, well, so I took your little. You have a seven-part series that you wrote on the world of iridology, and so one of the things I quoted it because it stood out to me says in the world of iridology, the eyes are like a living diary, faithfully recording the stories of our emotional journeys, which was not necessarily something I expected the eyes to reveal. But so tell us about that. Like, how are the eyes? And it says, are they a window into the soul or beyond physical symptoms? How do the eyes help you understand somebody's emotional landscape, not just physical history?

Speaker 2:

That's a really good question. So, like I mentioned, I went to the International Institute of Irodology and the founder and president, david Pesic. He created his own kind of school of thought of iridology it's called Holistic Irodology, interestingly enough and he was a psychologist for years. He got his degree in psychology and one of his big contributions to iridology was the thought and emotional aspect. There had been a lot of groundwork before him, but he kind of really brought this all together in a holistic way and one of the things that he kind of teaches is that these various systems of the body, these various different types of signs, they all have emotional indicators.

Speaker 2:

And let's take the liver, for example. The liver often indicates anger and resentment issues. So if you have a genetic weakness in the liver area of your iris, you may be predisposed to experiencing anger and resentment. If you have a liver pigment let's say you have a liver pigment in your left iris that may mean that at some point in your life you experienced anger and resentment toward primary feminine figures in your life, whether that was mom, grandma, sister, spouse.

Speaker 1:

Interesting, so even the left and right eye are going to give you different information.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay, the right side is going to be masculine. The left side is going to be feminine.

Speaker 1:

Huh, okay, keep going. And any more on the emotional stuff, because I'm super fascinated by how that eye is willing to give you that information if you know how to look, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So, for example, I had a client a little while ago who had on her left iris, I believe. She had some pancreatic pigmentation and some liver pigmentation, but she didn't have that on the right side. And so as we were going through her report and I was talking to her about all these things, I said it looks like you may have some anger and resentment towards primary feminine figures. And I do this very carefully because I don't want to say you've got mom issues. That's not a really great way to bring it up, so I always let them do the talking. I kind of put it out there. So I said that. And then with the pancreas, the emotion associated with the pancreas is often grief and sadness. So I said you also, it appears that you might have some grief and sadness towards primary feminine figures. And she kind of sat there for a minute and she was like, yeah, I don't really have a great relationship with my mom and it's really stressful for me. And she was kind of talking about that and she was like I don't know what to do about it. I said well, the best thing you can do is to have that talk with her if that's an option. If it's not safe to do that. I wouldn't say do that. And then we talked about all different kinds of the things that she could do to help work through those emotions.

Speaker 2:

And then, about a week or two later, her mom came in to me and set up an appointment and she was married, this woman, and so she didn't have the same last name.

Speaker 2:

So when her mom came in, I didn't know who it was. And then she I said so how did you hear about me? And she said oh well, you told my daughter that she and I have some issues, and so I wanted to come in and find out what issues I have with some people in my life, what emotional issues I have, and so it actually was a really good conversation for her and her mom. They actually did end up having a really good conversation about some things from childhood, how she grew up, and so it was very healing for her to get through those things and work through them, because a lot of times when you find out what's in your eye, you've never been able to work on them because you don't know what's there, and so just the fact of meeting with someone like me and having them show you what's there, it puts it at the forefront of your mind and you can go wow, I didn't even know these things were issues.

Speaker 1:

It's like revealing yourself to you, yeah, or what it sounds like is. It might be revealing something that's much more relevant or weighty in terms of your body's burden, or it's what it can't quite get past in order to heal. And just by bringing awareness to a major element or this big piece of the puzzle, sure enough you can actually go at the thing that's most impactful in the healing journey rather than dance around it. Try to supplement your way to health or any number of other silver bullets. When you can really identify the heart of the matter, I can imagine a profound amount of healing that can take place in the identification of that.

Speaker 2:

So it's really interesting to know to what you're genetically prone to. For example, if you have a genetic weakness in the thyroid, that's going to be something that you might struggle with your whole life. But if you know that, you can know how to support your body right. So things like for the thyroid, specifically, brazil nuts. Brazil nuts have a lot of selenium that help your body uptake iodine. So getting on Brazil nuts, making sure you're eating lots of Brazil nuts Not too many, though. Also, dulse Dulse is really great for iodine content. It's a natural source of iodine and so that can help support your thyroid.

Speaker 1:

For people who don't know what Dulse is telling.

Speaker 2:

It's a type of seaweed Northern Atlantic seaweed. It's purple. It's my favorite kind of seaweed that tastes the less fishy than some of the others in my.

Speaker 1:

Can you get that in like a shaker bottle, like they make it into a seasoning?

Speaker 2:

Yep, a lot of people use it for culinary purposes. I think that's the biggest use. But yeah, dulse is great. So knowing those things that you're predisposed to, you can know how to support your body. And really those in my experience, those genetic weaknesses are only going to flare up, so to speak, when your body's under a lot of stress. So whether it's mental stress, emotional stress, physical stress, that's when they'll act out because they are genetically weaker tissue. One interesting thing that I have seen is sometimes I'll see a weakness in the gallbladder area and I'll say, hey, it looks like you have a genetic weakness here in the gallbladder and they'll say about seven times out of 10. They'll say, oh, I had my gallbladder removed. I was going to ask that.

Speaker 1:

Does it give you windows into past? I'm thinking of surgical trauma as the body's gone through like that removing of a body part or some sort of Whether it's ovaries or any number of things.

Speaker 2:

I bet you that somehow we can't see removed tissue, but oftentimes, when there's a genetic weakness there, they'll often have had it removed. Unfortunately, you can sometimes see really serious traumas. For example, if you've had any kind of spinal trauma, you can see that on the pupil.

Speaker 2:

The pupil will often appear flattened in certain areas depending on which area of the spine we call it an aplenation of the pupil, where it looks a little bit flat in one area. So that is something we can't see. I did see one time my friend had. She wanted me to take some pictures of her family members, of all their irises, and so I did. And she had told me previously that her dad had a serious bowel trauma, His bowel had ruptured. And when I took a picture of his iris she said, Can you see that in his iris? And I went I didn't think that was possible, but yeah, I see it. Right there there was this brown pigment that was just coming right out of the bowel area spilling out into the other areas of the iris.

Speaker 1:

Wow.

Speaker 2:

And I didn't think those kinds of things happened, but that appeared to be what had happened in his iris, so that was really fascinating. Those things don't happen all the time, but I wonder if it was traumatic enough that it was recorded in the iris.

Speaker 1:

Interesting. Okay, well, I want to transition a little bit and I guess two part here. One is helping the listener get a sense of like what exactly when you go through an intake. Are you doing a verbal intake of a written form first or do you go straight to the eye and then debrief them afterward? And I ask that because I guess you know I sent you some pictures of my eyes because I thought it might be an interesting thing to wrap into this episode.

Speaker 1:

So we may be putting the car before the horse here, but I'm fully prepared for him to tell me I look like a maybe a dad of six kids who might be a little under slept or stressed or any number of things. So hopefully I'm not going to be weeping in front of all of you while we're looking at a couple of pictures of my eyes here. But so one, tell me about the process and then we'll. For the people who are in their detox course you actually can watch this If you're listening on the podcast. We'll try to be as descriptive as we can, but tell me about the process and then we'll pull up my photos and see what insightful things you may have been able to find out about my eyes.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So the process usually people are coming to see me for something specific. They're either they don't know what's wrong with them, but they know something is wrong and they want some more information. Oftentimes they know that I can help them with herbs, but they don't know necessarily what they need because they've got all these other problems, or they're looking to. They're just kind of intrigued about irodology and they just want to do it. That's great. They usually learn a whole lot more than they ever thought they would about their body. So when people come in, we usually just take pictures first. I go back and forth. Sometimes I like to get an intake and other times I like to just go in blind and just start talking about what's in people's eyes, and they'll often corroborate what I'm saying.

Speaker 2:

I'll say oh, it looks like you tend towards a little more acidity issues. You may have an under acidic stomach here. It looks like there may be some blood sugar regulation challenges and they go wow, yeah, that makes sense. So we'll take pictures and then we'll talk about it for a little bit and then I will go and create a report for people and then they'll come back and we'll do a follow-up and go through everything and kind of come up with a holistic plan that they can follow and start taking care of their body in a better way.

Speaker 2:

So that's kind of the process for most people.

Speaker 1:

Okay, cool. Well, we're doing the eyes first, because I haven't done any sort of verbal intake with Jordan yet, so you guys will get the. This is the first time I'm hearing whatever he's about to say to you. So welcome into the client's confidentiality room with us. So go ahead and pull those up, if you will, and give the list. Give it to me straight, I can handle it. Just let me know what you're finding. We'll have some fun with it, okay let's see, okay, there it is.

Speaker 1:

So these were actually shot on an iPhone, so they may not be the best pictures I could have sent him, but they're what I was able to do, so yeah, it's a little bit hard when you've got just a phone camera. Let's see Normally, people come into your office and you have a fancy camera you take a picture with. Is that right? Yeah, Yep.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I'm going to put them up here. Oh, maybe that's.

Speaker 1:

Interesting One is indoor and one's outdoor, so you already see the difference in the lighting. Okay, so can you see both of those on there Right now, I just see one. Okay, just one.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm going to zoom in a little bit here, see if we can get some good stuff here. Okay, so it is a little bit hard to tell because we've got some glare there in some areas, but you have a lymphatic iris, which is the blue type iris. You probably already knew that.

Speaker 1:

I didn't know it was lymphatic.

Speaker 2:

But here we go, okay, yeah, so with that I didn't mention this earlier but with the different types of viruses, you're going to have different sets of predispositions. Okay, so for people with lymphatic or blue viruses, they're going to be more predisposed to having acidity problems, over acidity problems, lymphatic congestion issues, kidney congestion issues, arthritic and rheumatic type issues. Those are just the kind of things that people will be predisposed to. Just to give your listeners some additional information, in case they have brown eyes and they're like well, what about me? What am I predisposed to?

Speaker 2:

The people who have the hematogenic or the true brown, dark brown irises they're going to be more predisposed to things like arteriosclerosis, intestinal digestive issues, liver and gallbladder congestion, blood iron issues, things like that. People with the lighter brown iris, the biliary iris, they're going to be predisposed to pancreatic insufficiencies, liver and gallbladder congestion and also intestinal immune issues as well. So those are kind of the basic predispositions. Okay, now, since you have the lymphatic iris, that may be the case as well for you, that you have those lymphatic predispositions. I do see around here that it appears that there may be some lymphatic topi, those little.

Speaker 1:

Like the lighter spots.

Speaker 2:

You're talking about these little white clouds down here.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so that means you may be predisposed to lymphatic congestion. Okay, overall you have a pretty good, strong constitution. Your iris fibers are pretty close together in most areas.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I remember there was a picture you sent me as an example of one that would work and the fibers were as I zoomed in. It's like man, there's a lot of space. It would look like the spider web. I couldn't believe how much space was in the eye. So you're saying mine's tighter and that typically is better. Okay, Carry on, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So we also have. I'm trying to find which picture is better here. This is a little bit better to see the colorett. Do you see this right here? It's like the little, it almost looks like streamers yeah, that are A little squiggly line that attracts the pupil so that everybody has a colorett and that is more unique to you than your fingerprints are Interesting.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

So that's very unique and so everything from that colorett to the pupil is the GI tract.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

And so over here, yeah, I can see kind of a difference in color.

Speaker 1:

from where that? I guess I'm thinking the ribbons or the streamers around the center.

Speaker 2:

So this over here is a small intestine. This is your right iris. Okay so this is a small intestine. This is the cecum part of the colon.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

This is your ascending colon and transverse colon.

Speaker 1:

Okay, interesting Okay.

Speaker 2:

Tell me more Now. If we had some pictures on my camera we might be able to tell a little bit better. But immediately around the pupil there might be. Do you see how it's pretty dark right in there? Yeah, yeah, Okay, Right there, and then it's lighter around here.

Speaker 1:

Okay, so for the listener on the top left, I guess it'd be the top right of my right eye.

Speaker 2:

At least surrounding the pupil there's like this dark ring. It's a little bit darker gray and then immediately around that there is a lighter gray ring. What that often indicates is that there is under, Potentially under acidity in the stomach and you know your stomach should be pretty acidic to help break down your food. But then also that may, that lighter gray ring may indicate that the rest of the digestive tract, the small intestine, the colon, may be a little bit over acidic.

Speaker 1:

Okay, and what is a reasonable Like if you find that, what does somebody take away from that as a practical tactical thing they could work on? Obviously there's a lot, but is there?

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Like a primary, are there most likely to be the things that are making a big difference?

Speaker 2:

Working on emotionally. An under acidic stomach often indicates feeling unworthy to receive things. Huh, okay. So working on being okay with receiving, Okay, I mean, that's something that I struggle with. I don't like people to help me out. I want to do it all myself, right.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, nobody likes to feel needy, sure yeah.

Speaker 2:

But also working on raising the acidity, and there's all kinds of things you can do for that. My preference is to, rather than give the stomach acidity, is, help the stomach produce it on its own. So things like celery juice, apple cider, vinegar, ayam pepper salt real salt I'm talking about, like red and real salt or Celtic salt.

Speaker 2:

Those kinds of things can help raise the acidity in your stomach and that's kind of the foundation. You help raise the acidity in your stomach and that's going to also help to lower the acidity in the rest of the digestive tract too.

Speaker 1:

Okay, that's neat, okay, couple of other things.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, let's get into a little bit more here. Right here there's a genetic weakness inside. This is going to be pretty close to the ileocecal valve, right there.

Speaker 1:

Tell people what that valve is.

Speaker 2:

So it's basically the valve between your small intestine and your large intestine, okay, that open and closes to allow food and waste to move into the large intestine. Okay, now, this area of tissue is going to be genetically weak, and so it may have the propensity to develop a pocket, or pockets, inside the colon walls. Okay, there is also another one right here in the small intestine.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I would have just looked at that as a space, but it doesn't seem to match the width of some of the other ones you're looking at.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and it'd be again. This would be better if we had some lateral lighting like a flash right there, but obviously for a phone camera this is actually pretty good. So those are just areas of genetic tissue weakness inside the colon. Additionally, the colaret it appears to come right up here and it looks like the colaret may go up here pretty close to the colon so that.

Speaker 1:

But he's talking about that ribbon that it kind of looks symmetrical, almost like there's the center of the flower and then the petals that form symmetry, and it's like there's one section near the bottom where it's not quite symmetrical. It kind of comes all the way in rather than matching the rest. Okay, what would that?

Speaker 2:

almost like A petal got ripped off or something and it looks like it kind of just goes in. That would indicate genetically it's going to be pretty tight through the cecum part of the colon right there and the cecum is the beginning of your colon, so it may be tough for waste to move through that area.

Speaker 1:

Okay, Potentially so. My takeaway so far is being more intentional with gut health is something that would be just because of predisposition. It seems like that's going to be something I want to pay attention to more or less indefinitely.

Speaker 2:

Yes, absolutely. Now, moving into the outside of the GI tract, here we have a few genetic weaknesses, right at about six o'clock. These look like little openings in the iris fibers, so they kind of look dark, gray or black in the picture that we're looking at.

Speaker 2:

But there's two of them on either side of the six o'clock line and these are actually going to run through the adrenal area that I was expecting. So stress yeah, sleep yeah. So I might have some challenges there. This one on the right side is going to run through the adrenals and into the kidneys, and then there's one right at six o'clock, a little bit further down, that's in the kidney as well.

Speaker 1:

Okay, yeah, I can certainly say six kids and a seven month old in the house. Yeah, add some stress and yeah, there's a lot of stress. Yeah. Does that seem more genetic, though like a predisposition or something yeah. More, something that would be a result of recency. These are genetic.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so you're going to be more prone to those things, like I mentioned with, whenever stress comes into play. Those are the areas that are going to feel it more than others. So you've got to be making sure that you're supporting your adrenals, your kidneys. You probably know how to do all those things anyway, so you probably do all those things anyway.

Speaker 1:

That this is predisposition, type of things. It's helpful because it one. It says, okay, this isn't I got the body I got and I need to do the best I can with it. And so let me shore up what tends to be or it seems to be an area where my body would have a harder time than the next person and I can have. There's a proactive nature I can take with this information too. I love it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and then over here it's not quite like these genetic weaknesses. This is at about between seven and eight o'clock, maybe about seven, 30. Right here there's a little bit of tissue that's a little bit weaker. So in this area you see how they're not as dense. Right there and right there. Yeah, it's going to be in the liver and gallbladder areas Okay.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so it really is organ like viscera is where I tend. It looks like I have most of my challenges.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay, up here at about 12 o'clock between 11 and one. Actually. That's the brain area. It's really dense in there. So, you've got a good a good, a good brain. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I can't quite tell because of let's look at the other one. Actually this one, yeah, yeah, you can see it a little bit better. I know you have that error reflection?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, but you're saying that cognition is typically not going to be my genetic predisposition weakness yeah, it's more gut.

Speaker 2:

That's your strength. Okay, good to hear. Your strength is the brain yeah, what about that? Okay, I'm going to keep it going.

Speaker 1:

I love this part.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Cool, okay, anything else that stands out about those pictures?

Speaker 2:

That's about all I can see. There may be some pigmentation right here.

Speaker 1:

Okay, I can't quite tell, hard to see. That's the part where the camera reflection is in my eyes. You're seeing a shadow. Yeah, the camera.

Speaker 2:

There may be some brown or red right in there.

Speaker 1:

Okay, and what would that?

Speaker 2:

tell you it's brown, it's going to be, and you might be able to just go look in the mirror on your right eye and say, okay, what color is that? If there is something there?

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

I don't know if this is a. Let's look on the other one. Oh, it might just be genetic marker.

Speaker 1:

Okay, it looks darker on this other photo. But what is that Cause so kind of a nine, 10 o'clock is where he's looking at relative to my eye when? What is that telling you?

Speaker 2:

So if there were a pigment there, if it's brown it's going to be liver indicated, maybe some liver gallbladder congestion. If it's reddish, that's going to be pancreatic enzyme related On. This picture doesn't look like there is a pigment there, though this other one that I'm looking at. It may be another stricture, though I can't quite tell, so you might have to go in the mirror and look. If it comes in at about 915, 930, nine o'clock, if it comes in towards the pupil, that's going to be a stricture in the ascending colon.

Speaker 1:

So another A Still. We're on GI, though, yeah.

Speaker 2:

If the pigment is inside that color to the pupil if there was a pigment there, that's going to be a little more serious. Whenever we find a pigment inside the color to the pupil, that's a little more serious. And so making sure you support your colon the right ways, eat lots of fiber clean it out periodically that's the best way to support your gut health. Fantastic With those kinds of things, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Thanks for letting me be your guinea pig and learn more about this personally.

Speaker 2:

So as your listeners get to learn more about you Right.

Speaker 1:

maybe they didn't want to know that I have genetic predisposition, better care of my gut and colon, et cetera. But here we go now. You know people.

Speaker 2:

And that's the thing with predispositions, you can take care of yourself really well and not have any issues in these areas. I've met with people who do a lot for their health and I tell them things and I'm like you have a predisposition to that and this. And they're like, oh well, I'm already doing this and I'm already doing that and I go. Great, you're on the right track.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, keep at it. Okay, cool was there. You said you had some pictures of yourself or your own eyes or anything dramatically different that would be worthy of showing the listener or the viewer here that could give them another go.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, let me show you some pigments, what they look like, so I'm gonna stop sharing that for a minute and I'll pull up my other picture here. All right, there's that. I'm gonna share this. Okay, here we go.

Speaker 1:

All right, so this is my left iris.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you can see a lot there.

Speaker 1:

I'm not sure if I talked over you. You said it's your left iris. Yeah, this is my left iris.

Speaker 2:

My left iris isn't quite as strong as my right one, but you can see there's iris fibers here. There's my colorett pupil and at about 12, just off of not 12 o'clock, six o'clock, maybe about 6, 15, 6, 10, I've got this liver pigment.

Speaker 1:

Wow, that is a very different color.

Speaker 2:

Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And what is that type?

Speaker 2:

So liver is just like it's got some this is a liver pigment on the adrenal area, so for me that means my liver experienced some congestion, stagnation. That also indicates anger and resentment and fear towards primary feminine figures. Interesting does that resonate? Is that like In some ways yes and in other ways no? I mean I have a great relationship with my mom, a great relationship with my wife, but from time to time I'll get angry about things and I'll have some resentment issues that I have to work through. I'm kind of predisposed to that because of this. Also some fear. I mean when I was a kid, growing up, I was terrified of girls.

Speaker 2:

I would have all these girls who would have a crush on me and I would be afraid of them, like I didn't know how to talk to them, things like that I didn't, you know, I just was one of my weaknesses and now I kind of know why I had this fear. So anyway, there's that. There's this. It's a little more yellow. It'll be kidney related. Let me go to my right eye now. Oh, wow, that is different. I've got some. This one is actually pretty serious. This is pancreatic pigmentation and the pancreas area right here, and that is what we call a topostabil pigment. It's a type of pigment in the area, of what type it is. So it's a pancreas pigment in the pancreas area. Additionally, I have a primary blood vessel. This is about, for your listeners, it's about 130.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, what he's talking about is that the white of the? I was gonna ask you like, because we've been focused on the people, but the white of the eye also gives you information. Is that right?

Speaker 2:

Yep, okay, so the white part of your eye is called your sclera, and whenever you have a really thick blood vessel, we call those primary blood vessels, and they will often point to areas that are more challenged. And so we have, I have this primary blood vessel pointing to that pigment in the pancreas area. So that's a little more serious. My dad's a type one diabetic, so it kind of makes sense. I was predisposed to that and I ate really, really poorly in college, lots of processed foods, and those are the worst kinds of foods for your pancreas. So I've been working for a while to clean that up and it's going pretty well, I would say Nice.

Speaker 1:

How recent is this photo?

Speaker 2:

This is a couple of years old. Okay, here in the sclera, these little blood vessels, if you can't see, there's lots of little small blood vessels going in different directions.

Speaker 2:

Those are more local inflammation in the body, things like that I have. One of the biggest questions I get is will my eyes change? Like if I do a lot of cleansing things, will my eyes change? Will these pigments go away? Yes, they can. In my experience they don't, but it kind of depends on the person. A lot of it also depends on how much change that you create to heal your body, Because these pigments often take years to develop. Sometimes they can develop really quickly, but most of the time they take years to deposit on the iris, and so it's not like you're gonna do a cleansing program for three months and then it's gonna go away.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's a lifestyle.

Speaker 2:

Yeah it's a lifestyle. That's the key. Yeah, so I don't know how bad my eyes were before this, because I had done a lot prior to taking these pictures. These are the first pictures that I have, but with my children I've taken pictures of their eyes really young so we can see and track the changes that happen in their eyes.

Speaker 1:

I like it. Tell us about the for the viewer. They probably noticed the top left or the 11, 10 o'clock. You've got a big different color there. What's going on there?

Speaker 2:

This kind of seems like a sectoral heterochromia, where a whole section of the iris is colored. Here it's a little bit orange, a little bit yellow, and then it extends into the GI tract in the transverse colon area. Now, like I mentioned, pigments in the GI tract are a little more serious, and so I got gut health that I gotta work on too. So it's not just you, most of us actually.

Speaker 1:

Welcome brother.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I'm right there. So this is orange. This is gonna be pancreas-related as well. So, yeah, digestive is a big thing that I focus on for myself and helping to make sure that my blood sugar is regulated well, that's another big one. I'm not. I don't do doctors, and that's my choice for my family, so I don't think I have diabetes. I didn't. Last time I went to the doctor, which was seven years ago, so seven, eight years ago, but yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Well cool. That's what this all indicates no thanks for the tour here. It's been fun to have a couple of different examples and yeah, our eyes do look different, and so imagine for the listener. They're intrigued to say what in the world might my eyes tell me about myself? So Very cool. Anything else you wanna comment on there?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just to make another mention of the sclera. There are other signs that we can find in the sclera. Sometimes there will be pigments like a brown pigment. Sometimes that happens, it's not too common. Other times we'll find this kind of yellowish substance toward the medial side of the iris. So on your right eye that's gonna be towards the right side. On your left eye that's gonna be towards the left side. That's a normal thing when you're looking at it like this.

Speaker 2:

It's gonna be toward your nose, yeah, medial means middle, if you were to think of it that way, and there will be this yellowish, whitish, cremish substance just to the medial side of your iris, and that's what we call a pingwickula. That's the funnest word to say in Ayuridology, but that's an indication of some liver gallbladder congestion.

Speaker 1:

Okay.

Speaker 2:

The other thing I wanted to mention is the pupil as well. The pupil can indicate certain things if it's too dilated or too constricted. For example, with a picture like this, I have really good lighting, I've got a focusing light and then I've got a flash coming from the lateral side, and sometimes people's eyes will still be dilated with that amount of light, and so what that often can indicate are some blood sugar regulation challenges and potentially feeling really overwhelmed. They may have some adrenal issues, things like that.

Speaker 2:

Got it If it's too constricted. That often means that a person is really just trying to hold everything in. They don't want to let anything out, and Control it, constipate it?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it sounds like it. Yeah, constipate it or control, yep, yeah.

Speaker 2:

Those are some other things with the iris. I mean the pupil is not the iris, but it's related. And with all of these things you'll notice that I'm not very specific in the way I talk about these things, like with you. Know, I'm talking about the pancreas pigmentation and I say I may have a blood sugar challenge because, we don't want to step into the medical arena and get into diagnosing and things like that. So we use a little bit different terminology.

Speaker 1:

in case you're wondering here yeah, but it could corroborate other, just intuitions, experiences, diagnoses. It's a great window into, just for me, even just having you take a hip shot at my photos that are less quality than yours, to affirm, yeah, no, gi, that would be my weakness, and other things seem to be okay, so very appreciative.

Speaker 2:

It's what you said about corroborating. I do have a good story about that. I had a client come into me who wanted me to look at his eyes and he had this sign on the cornea. So for those of you who don't know, the cornea covers the pupil and along it appeared along the edge of the iris, but it's actually a deposit on the cornea.

Speaker 2:

It's like this haziness that you see along the very edge of a person's iris here, and he had that sign and it was very apparent and what we call that it's called a corneal arcus, and what that is an indication of is possible lipid deposits in organic salt buildup inside of the arteries. And I said to this person hey, as your doctor told you anything about your heart health, does he have any concerns? And he said no. My doctor says my heart's great, there's no issues. And I said I don't buy it. I don't know about that, at least from what your eyes are telling me. I could be wrong, but I would say to go meet with a cardiologist, that might be a good idea. And so he actually had an appointment with this cardiologist set up for a few weeks after our appointment. So we went to that appointment and he came back and he said that the cardiologist had said that he had an 80% blockage in one of his main arteries.

Speaker 1:

Oh, wow, and you could see that where the other whatever diagnostic, he had just completely missed it. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I could see that there was a problem big enough that he needed to take some action, really drastic action. And yeah, it just. I mean, the cardiologist said the same things, yeah.

Speaker 1:

So, would you see, I'm thinking more specific here, like inflammation is kind of general, but do you see inflammation in the eyes? Do you see something like parasitic or infections? Do you see something like metal toxicity or any of those things that you would notice in the eyes? Those are some of the things that we can't see.

Speaker 2:

Actually, we can't see parasites, can't see, well, we can't say, see heavy metals by name, things like this though do you see these little pigments? This is at about six o'clock, a little bit more than six o'clock, 6.15, 6.30. These little pigments, they're really dark gray. Those may be heavy metals and toxins in my eye tract.

Speaker 1:

Okay, but I need no because it's inside the. I'll call it the flower petals there.

Speaker 2:

You'd see that this is going to be right near the appendix.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, okay, interesting. Yeah, just so. It's one other way to peek into your body, people, and it's no blood test required, no needles, no, uh, non-invasive, right, just you need a good photo and somebody. Yeah, they're doing so.

Speaker 2:

And you can do this. You can do um iridology with a light and a lens which is kind of how I started out. Okay, and that's pretty effective too. That's what most people did for years and years and years. I mean Hippocrates used iridology, and he would just use the sun, you know, looking into the person's iris, um, and so that's. That's a great way as well.

Speaker 1:

Cool. Well, so if somebody's hearing this and they're thinking, gosh, I want to get into that, I know you. You've got your a free seven part email series you do, which just kind of gives them some of the background history of it. But you also have a, a course people can take. So tell us about that, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So I developed this course called the at home iridology course, to help parents and caretakers use iridology in their homes, because that's really why I got started in this I wanted to know how to help my family members when we're dealing with things that we couldn't figure out, and so I developed this course that kind of gives you all of the tools and all of the information that you need to make a good evaluation of those in your home so that you can start taking care of more things in your home, cause I think the way that society is going, we kind of need to have more things that we can do on our own and be outside the system and be more self-sufficient, and so that was kind of the idea behind this, this course.

Speaker 1:

Love it, okay, well, so as we start to wrap up a little bit, tell people, I guess, anything more about where they can find you and your work, where they find this course, and we'll go from there.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you can find me at our website, health savesorg, and you can go and sign up for our free email course on there about iwardology or check out our at home iwardology course, just on the website there. You can also find me on Instagram. I'm not too active on Instagram but I do post occasionally. I think it's just Jordan Gunderson on Instagram and that's S-E-N.

Speaker 1:

Okay, Cool. And then you have different packages. I noticed like different, seems like different depths you get into related to how much work you do with iwardology. Tell people about that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so with iwardology there's a few different things that we can do. I often will do a live iris analysis and I really like to have pictures, so I don't use a light in the lens anymore. So we'll take a picture of your eye, we'll have you sit down and I'll just go through things with you, like we did here today. Unfortunately, these all have to be in person because, like we just saw, it's a little bit difficult to really get all the info from the iris just on a picture from a phone or something.

Speaker 2:

And then I also do a full report which is a 75 page write up of every system in your body, so your detox systems, like your liver, your kidneys, and then channels of elimination, like your lungs, your battles, urinary system, and then all the other major systems like the brain, the endocrine system, various structures, immune system, things like that. And then we talk about that for about an hour later. And then I also do a mini report which is kind of a mix between the two. Those are for people who don't really know much. They just want to learn more and they're not really interested in really getting serious about their health, but they just want some cool information.

Speaker 1:

Cool. Well, Jordan, this has been highly insightful and I'm super intrigued to know more, and my wife is already like I want to know what to do for my body. I don't know what's going on in my body. So yeah, thank you so much for the time today. I appreciate you carving it out and just educating us and giving people one other option outside the medical system to just learn more about the body and be proactive as a steward of their own body. Thank you very much.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, you bet, Christian. Thanks for having me on. I always enjoy chatting with you and I hope your listeners got some good information from our discussion here.

Speaker 1:

Oh, no doubt they did All right. We'll talk to you soon, jordan. Okay, thanks, no-transcript.

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